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| Fretwork under simulated tension http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43439 |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue May 13, 2014 8:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Fretwork under simulated tension |
So I’ve been looking at the new version of the Erlewine Neck Jig from StewMac. And have been wondering, how many of you do all your fretwork with the guitar under simulated tension? For the record I don’t, but I’ve been wondering if I should. Pro, cons or any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Tue May 13, 2014 9:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
I do. I built a Teeter jig many years ago for a difficult bass fret job. And since I have the jig, it is no extra work to use it on every fret job. Does it make a difference? Yes, but some guitars probably do not benefit that much if the neck is well behaved in the first place. But if you get a lot of electric guitars in for fret work from picky shredder types, then you really need a string tension compensation jig as it will help you to get that 1/16" non-buzzing action that they expect. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Tue May 13, 2014 9:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
Yes, it makes a difference. Bought one of the original StewMac / Erlewine jigs way back in the Stone Age (made of phenolic and steel rods). Still works great over 25 years later. |
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| Author: | dradlin [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
I use a jig I made modeled after the Erlewine jig. At times a dip in the neck will be revealed under simulated tension, and the jig helps level that out. I'm not convinced that the jig needs to be zeroed out and set with the guitar in playing position. I started down that path and stopped after still producing excellent results while omitting that step. The jig and fixing of the guitar in the jig is not perfectly rigid, so variations may be movement other than gravity affecting the neck. I trust the setup more when things remain static. All that aside, it's also a great jig to support the neck while being worked. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
I don't, but I hardly do repair work, so I'm always working on brand new necks, nice stiff acoustic ones too. I do occasionally get the odd wonky electric in, so I could see it being useful for that, but on new guitars I don't find it necessary... |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
I mostly do new necks as well. I usually put 5 or 6 lbs on each shoulder of the upper bout and support the peghead and get everything as flat as possible with the truss rod and level. You do get a good idea what the neck/body junction and extension are doing under load. That said, the best repairman I know does not use simulated tension and he is a setup master. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
I don't use one, but I pass on old guitars wit permanengt backbows in the neck, which is the only thing I'd use it for. I can get shreder actin without one. That being said, I've been considering getting the new improved neck jig now that it's made of aluminum, and twice as expensive as it was 15 years ago. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Tue May 13, 2014 11:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
All do respect for the SM sponsorship here -- but it more than ticks me off that DE takes credit for this jig when it is clearly a rip off the device Don Teeter invented three or more decades ago. I built one of Don's design and it worked real well, long gone (bless you repairpersons you are a special breed - not for me). I used it mainly for classics with the Spanish heel and steel strings that some how got squirrelly twists. I see it could be useful in a busy repair shop. Don Teeter's books are still around so the industrious type could build their own. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Tue May 13, 2014 11:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
Quote: Don Teeter's books are still around so the industrious type could build their own. For a long time, Don's books were "The Bible" to us repair guys.... with good reason. |
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| Author: | uvh sam [ Tue May 13, 2014 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
In fairness, dan gives credit to teeter in at least one of his books for the I dea, I think any way. Who ever came up with the original idea doesn't really matter as a neck jig is useful for both new and vintage guitars. They work great as a holding fixture for any neck or guitar and really great for vintage martins. I personally would build one rather than buy one but I wouldn't want to level frets or finger boards without one ( at least until the plek machine arrives 
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Tue May 13, 2014 11:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
If the frets need leveling under tension, I just do it with the strings tight. I use a narrow file with safe edges, and push the string over, or loosen one at a time. This can leave flat spots on the frets that are not continuous across the fret, but they will be evened out with the crowning file. I just did this yesterday on a 1949 D-28 while the customer watched, and I called it the 'poor man's Plek'. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Tue May 13, 2014 12:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
Don mostly intended use of the device to actually resurface the fingerboard -- pretty cool concept. That's how I used it as well, I also used Don's controversial method to epoxy the frets back in place once the FB plane was re-established. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue May 13, 2014 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
I don't understand the engineering/physics of why this is important or how it would help. If the neck is dead straight and you dress the frets then add string tension you get some relief which can be adjusted with the truss rod. Seems to me that for any given fret the next couple in front of it need to be at the same level and you will not get buzz. On new necks I use the Stew Mac sanding beam and it works fantastic. On repairs I use a file that is about 5in long for partial fret dressing. What is an example of why neck tension would be important for fret work? |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Tue May 13, 2014 12:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
This device it about what "shape" the neck takes once its under tension and or under tension for a while. You then place the guitar in the fixture, with the string on and under tension. Take measurement at various locations and clamp the guitar in place remove the strings. Now you work the finger board plane to correct out of flat conditions (make it the correct plane) in relation ship to the saddle etc. In my view it has much more to do with repair than new work. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Tue May 13, 2014 1:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
What I don't get is the need to re-create the jig out of extruded aluminum, when what was being made before worked just fine. Is it nice? Yes! But seriously? I love Stew-Mac, but this was an unnecessary modification. I thought the original was over-priced, but this one...yikes! It increased both the cost and the weight needlessly. If you want one, simply build one from baltic birch (or a 2x6!), and add the hardware and dial indicators. It won't take long, and you will save yourself probably $300+... |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Tue May 13, 2014 1:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
kencierp wrote: This device it about what "shape" the neck takes once its under tension and or under tension for a while. You then place the guitar in the fixture, with the string on and under tension. Take measurement at various locations and clamp the guitar in place remove the strings. Now you work the finger board plane to correct out of flat conditions (make it the correct plane) in relation ship to the saddle etc. In my view it has much more to do with repair than new work. The thing about is, once the strings are loosened, even though the neck is supported from the back, it's still not the same tension stress. It can change even jigged up one the strings are loosened. |
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| Author: | dradlin [ Tue May 13, 2014 1:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
theguitarwhisperer wrote: kencierp wrote: This device it about what "shape" the neck takes once its under tension and or under tension for a while. You then place the guitar in the fixture, with the string on and under tension. Take measurement at various locations and clamp the guitar in place remove the strings. Now you work the finger board plane to correct out of flat conditions (make it the correct plane) in relation ship to the saddle etc. In my view it has much more to do with repair than new work. The thing about is, once the strings are loosened, even though the neck is supported from the back, it's still not the same tension stress. It can change even jigged up one the strings are loosened. Understand that a strap around the neck (at the nut) and a jack behind the peg head induces a couple on the neck... this is simulating the couple that the tensioned strings impart to the neck as the tensioned strings break over the nut. The induced couple is a greater factor on an angled headstock and not so much on a straight (Fender) style. Axial compression is not simulated in the jig. The jacks that support the neck between the nut and heel are for support only and are not used to force the neck into state... It's all about the couple applied to the peg head. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Tue May 13, 2014 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
dradlin wrote: theguitarwhisperer wrote: kencierp wrote: This device it about what "shape" the neck takes once its under tension and or under tension for a while. You then place the guitar in the fixture, with the string on and under tension. Take measurement at various locations and clamp the guitar in place remove the strings. Now you work the finger board plane to correct out of flat conditions (make it the correct plane) in relation ship to the saddle etc. In my view it has much more to do with repair than new work. The thing about is, once the strings are loosened, even though the neck is supported from the back, it's still not the same tension stress. It can change even jigged up one the strings are loosened. Understand that a strap around the neck (at the nut) and a jack behind the peg head induces a couple on the neck... this is simulating the couple that the tensioned strings impart to the neck as the tensioned strings break over the nut. The induced couple is a greater factor on an angled headstock and not so much on a straight (Fender) style. Axial compression is not simulated in the jig. The jacks that support the neck between the nut and heel are for support only and are not used to force the neck into state... It's all about the couple applied to the peg head. I get it. It's still not the same. But frankly, it likely is more than close enough considering the results people get using it. I just haven't run into any situation that the ig would have helped me in, unless the neck was warped into a shape that needed a refret anyway. I pass on ancient guitars with permanent backbows, and getting this jig wouldn't make me reconsider that policy. I'm still thinking about getting it though...
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| Author: | kencierp [ Tue May 13, 2014 2:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
I can only comment about the original Teeter device -- the few times I used it the results were perfect. Note that in the Teeter method there are really two fixtures involve the other is a bridge location jig. Combined with the main fixture you can dimensionally map the lower bout in the critical area. Since the sound board is sure to relax with the strings removed its a vital component to establish a true position. There's about 8 or 10 pages of instruction in Teeter's volume 2. |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Tue May 13, 2014 9:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
I've never used one. Like jfmckenna's post above I don't quite understand it. If I level the frets under string tension or simulated string tension I get a dead straight fingerboard with no relief under string tension. Where if I level the fingerboard in the "free" state and then apply the tension I get a schooch of relief which I consider desirable. Maybe that's it's a bad assumption on my part to assume I want some relief, I do know some players who claim they get a lower action with a dead straight fingerboard. So, I have to ask, why is this a good thing? help me out here. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
The way you use the jig is to tune the guitar up to pitch and then straighten the neck out, fasten the neck down to the supports. Then the jig holds the neck in that exact position when you remove the strings. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
The jig certainly has it's usefulness. I've used various incarnations of the system on probably a few hundred guitars, but it's been years since the last time I used one (mine is currently buried in storage, and partially scavenged for parts for other tools). I know this may to sound wrong, but in some regards I feel it to be something of a crutch that I've outgrown. It's a brilliant design really, and although the initial inspiration (which Dan has acknowledged) came from Teeter, there are so many fundamental changes in function and novel elements of design that the evolved version in question here really is Dan's baby. In any case, it can be a very useful tool that I have greatly appreciated in the past. Over time however, I feel it carries certain limitations which can create something of a glass ceiling. I'm not criticizing the tool mind you, as this ceiling is admittedly pretty high. Still, with some very intentional and practiced techniques we've developed over time, I've found we can open doors to even greater control in achieving even more ideal results in an extremely precise manner. The neck jig can certainly be useful, and accelerate the quality of results many can achieve. At a certain point though, I do ultimately feel it can be something of a crutch that can hold the most attentive and skilled technicians back from getting even better. |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
Hi All, Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for your thoughts and input. I'm only looking at this from the approach of someone building new instruments. I hadn't taken a good look at this jig in the past and when I did I started wondering if I was missing something that everyone else was doing. It appears to have its place, but it is not necessarily something I need to run out and buy (or make). Looks like for now at least I'll continue to do my fretwork as I have in the past. If anyone else has more thoughts I'd be glad to hear them. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Tue May 13, 2014 11:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
David Collins wrote: The jig certainly has it's usefulness. I've used various incarnations of the system on probably a few hundred guitars, but it's been years since the last time I used one (mine is currently buried in storage, and partially scavenged for parts for other tools). I know this may to sound wrong, but in some regards I feel it to be something of a crutch that I've outgrown. It's a brilliant design really, and although the initial inspiration (which Dan has acknowledged) came from Teeter, there are so many fundamental changes in function and novel elements of design that the evolved version in question here really is Dan's baby. In any case, it can be a very useful tool that I have greatly appreciated in the past. Over time however, I feel it carries certain limitations which can create something of a glass ceiling. I'm not criticizing the tool mind you, as this ceiling is admittedly pretty high. Still, with some very intentional and practiced techniques we've developed over time, I've found we can open doors to even greater control in achieving even more ideal results in an extremely precise manner. The neck jig can certainly be useful, and accelerate the quality of results many can achieve. At a certain point though, I do ultimately feel it can be something of a crutch that can hold the most attentive and skilled technicians back from getting even better. So what do you do now? |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Tue May 13, 2014 11:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fretwork under simulated tension |
We use a vaguely traditional hand lapping methods which appear a bit "freehand", but incorporates redundant checks and references to rule out errors and refine tolerances. Nothing I want to hold secret, but complicated enough that I'd have a hard time describing it to any meaningful depth in a post. |
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